Crucifixion - Fact or Fiction - Debate vs Dr. Robert Douglas (USA)

After that you the audience will have an opportunity to participate and ask your questions.

So with that brothers and sisters, I'm going to flip the coin and x the gentlemen to choose Head or tails and the one who wins will have the choice to begin or not to begin.

I will be leaving shaytan al rajim Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem laku, Jarl Hakuna hoppel barthel in Alberta, Canada huka.

onesie Romina Maharshi found warahmatullah mean?

Well, I mean a la Sora.

So the cola so the colonial regime, Mr.

Chairman, and my dear brothers and sisters.

At the outset, since I'm beginning the talk, and I see a lot of faces, which appear to me to be those of the Christian faith.

I would like to put forth our position with Avi Christianity, that Islam is the only non Christian faith which makes it an article of faith for his followers to believe in Jesus.

No Muslim is a Muslim, he does not believe in Jesus.

We are made to believe that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest messengers of God.

We believe in his miraculous birth, which many modern day Christians do not believe today.

We believe that he was the Messiah, translated Christ.

And we believe that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

As such, the Muslim and the Christian is going together.

But the parting of the way, takes place on three basis.

Number one, the original sin number two, the divinity of Christ.

And number three, the crucifixion.

These are points of differences between the Muslims and the Christians with regard to the subject of crucifixion, as you see here, on this banner here, it says crucifixion fact or fiction?

Now the Holy Quran gives a direct answer to that question.

It says Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful was only him in Nakata in Nakata lol merci ha resub no Maria Maria Rasulullah is the end they said in boast that we kill Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God.

The Quran goes on suwama kata aloo masala boo.

They didn't kill him.

No, did they crucify him?

Well, I can shoot him but it was made to appear to them.

So why in Allah Zenith Allah foofy Luffy Shakti min home and those who dispute there in a full of doubts Marla who may mean they have no certain knowledge electabuzz Xin The only follow conjecture, guesswork fiction.

Mama Fatah lujah tienen.

For assurity.

They kill him not.

It calls this event described by the Christian as crucifixion.

See, as you see if x is crucifixion to fix a person on the cross anyhow by meals or ropes or strings and have him killed.

to crucify means to kill by hanging or impaling on the cross F x IO inclusive fiction.

We say it is true sci fi CGI in fiction, it sounds the same crucifixion or crucifixion, the spelling Jesus the difference between the two, that in the Islamic point of view, it is a fiction.

Now, when we say that it is a fiction, the Christian brings what produces his book of evidence.

He says, Here, we have a written record by eyewitnesses and your witnesses to the happenings some 2000 years ago, that Jesus Christ was hanged and killed on the cross some 2000 years ago.

Now, what I'm going to do tonight is instead of telling you this is what the Muslim say, this is what the Quran says.

I said, Look, I want to show to you, that the Bible that you hold in your hands, whatever version you have, you will find the verses that I'm going to quote, and the argument I'm going to use, see Jesus Christ after his alleged crucifixion, alleged crucifixion, he returns to that upper room where they had the Last Supper.

And he walks in, and he says, Shalom, shalom in Hebrew, meaning peace be unto you.

When he said, peace be unto you, his disciples were terrified.

So I'm asking him, I learned friends.

I have been doing this for quite some time, my lunette friends of Christianity.

Why were they terrified?

Because when you meet your long lost Master, your uncle, your grandfather, your priest, your guru, the Arabs and the Jews will embrace one another, kiss one another, in the neck.

That's how they meet when they show the love and compassion for one another.

Instead of doing that, the disciples of Jesus were terrified.

I want to know why.

Why were they terrified?

So the Christian tells me says, you see in Luke chapter 24, we are told by Luke that they were afraid that because they thought he was a spirit.

The wordings are, they thought he was a spirit.

A ghost is poop.

So I'm asking, did he look like a spirit?

Does it look like a ghost?

Did he look like a spook?

The Christian says, No.

Then I said, why should they think the man is a spirit when he didn't look like one?

So he gets puzzled.

This is my experience with the most learned men of Christianity, they get puzzled.

Why would they think the man is a spirit when he doesn't look like a spirit?

I said, The reason is that the disciples of Jesus they had heard from here say, people were talking that the master was hanged on the cross.

They had heard from hearsay, people were talking that he had given up the coast.

In other spirits that come out, he had died.

They had heard from hearsay what people were talking that he is now dead and buried for three days.

A man with such a reputation, you expect that man to be stinking in his grave after three days, because all the knowledge of the disciples was from hearsay.

Because Mark, chapter 14 was 50.

He says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all his disciples forsook him and fled.

All his disciples, they forsook him and fled, which means they were not eyewitnesses or your witnesses to the happenings.

The knowledge was from hearsay.

So on hearsay evidence, if you know about a man who is dead embedded, and when you see such a person, seemingly that person, naturally are terrified, because you're thinking the man is a ghost.

So Jesus Christ, wanting to assure them, that is not what they're thinking.

He says, and I'm quoting, he says, Behold, my hands and my feet, look, have a look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself and the same fellow man, what's wrong with you?

What are you afraid of me for is a handle me and see, handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see me have a spirit means any spirit.

This is an axiomatic truth.

You don't have to prove this to the Jews.

To the atheist, to the agnostics.

It's an axiomatic truth universally accepted that a spirit will not have flesh and bones.

Then why is Jesus at pains to tell them so and in fact Well known and accepted.

The reason is, because the disciples of Jesus with thinking the man has come back from the dead, he was resurrected.

He was spiritualized.

That is reason.

So it's telling them, I am not what you are thinking.

I'm not a spirit, not a ghost.

I'm not a spoke.

And they handle him.

And they believe not for joy.

It means they were overjoyed and wondered, What happened, man.

We thought the man was they didn't bear it.

But we can see he's demonstrating that he is himself flesh and blood.

And they believe no for joy and wonder.

So Jesus wants to assure them further, he says, have you here any meat, something to eat.

And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and a honeycomb.

And he took it any act in the very sight to prove that there is a ghost.

That is a spook, that is a spirit, no, to prove that he is himself, and he is not resurrected, because the resurrected bodies get spiritualized.

Who says so?

I say Paul, who says so I say Jesus, who says so I say each and every one of you.

Each and every one of you will admit that the resurrect body won't be this.

Flesh and blood, flesh and bones.

It will be spiritualized.

But the greatest testifier of the Scriptures, Paul of Christianity, Paul, in his book of Corinthians, First Corinthians chapter 15, he says, talking about the resurrection of Christ, the whole chapter in some Bibles is headed, the resurrection of Christ.

The chapter itself is at this His resurrection of Christ.

In verse three, he says, Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures was for and he was raised again from the dead.

according to the Scriptures, the scriptures that he's talking about, is not Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, because they will not written his is about 56.

Before, after Christ, and the others goes to about 60, according to Christian scholars, so he's not referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke and john.

He was, you know, going through them and found out what was what No, he's speaking from his knowledge of the Old Testament.

Verse 14, he says, If Christ is not risen from the dead, our preaching is vain.

Your faith is vain.

In other words, Christianity has nothing to offer mankind you have nothing to offer.

And I can assure you that that in my country, the Christian missionary, when it comes to homes, he does not come to tell us about hygiene, personal hygiene.

I mean, we Muslims are the most hygienic people on earth.

I will not go into details.

This is not the occasion, the most hygienic people on earth.

At question time, you may ask and I will demonstrate to you I'll explain to you.

We are the most hospitable people on earth.

In ethics, and in morality, you can point a finger at us that we are better than you known, no group of religious groups in my country can show a candle to us that we are better than you.

The only thing he can tell us is that you have no salvation.

Because salvation only comes with the blood of the Lord Jesus, which you do not accept.

That's the only thing he has to tell us.

So, Paul says that, if this is didn't happen, then your preaching is vain, useless, worthless.

And your faith is also useless, worthless, as the American would put it is all garbage.

Your religion is garbage.

If you didn't have this, this is the only sales point that you have.

Then in verse 35, he says, someone may rationally ask, how do the dead rise again, and with what kind of body will they come?

He poses this question not seeking information from us.

But is there a trick question and he himself answers it in verse 42.

He says, there that that which is so on, means buried, is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown in corruption, and it is raised employee.

It is sown means buried a physical body and it is raised a spiritual body.

Once you die, this body this physical body is put into the dust, dust with dust, from dust out and to dust yourself.

Return finished.

But when you're resurrected, it is not the dust.

It will be a spiritualized body, according to St.

Paul.

And on that premise, the whole of his 14 books in the New Testament written more than half the New Testament was written by Paul 14 out of the 27 books.

And the whole premises of his argument is that Christ was risen from the dead and resurrected spiritually, a spiritual body, when people say spiritual body, they think well body what is body you look at the dictionary and then you say, look, body has has as mass volume dimensions.

So it says, You see, there was a body.

I said, this is an apparition, when you see an apparition, what is the apparition it appears to us in the form of a body?

The ghost you see the world What do you see you see something that appears to be a human kind.

But we know that thing is something you can grapple with, you can grasp it, you can pocket it.

You see the filmmakers, you American filmmakers in Hollywood, they made these things, something that we can imagine far more easily, again, and again, they conjure up, you know, somebody's coming out through a keyhole, a steam comes out.

And then you find it materialized into a man, the Invisible Man, or Sabu.

You know, he played the thief of Baghdad, in which you see that he picks up a bottle on the seashore, and he opens a bottle, and something comes out like a smoke and it materializes in the genie.

But that Genie has a form.

It has a body, but it is an invisible imperceptible body, something that you can't grapple with, but you see a body you see a body, it was only thin air, you see nothing, it might be there, but you see nothing.

So it materializes.

So we say it appears to us in the form of a body.

So spiritual body, says St.

Paul.

That's his understanding of the resurrection.

Everybody, anybody, even you are resurrected, you will be spiritualized.

And he was only confirming what Jesus had said in the Gospel of St.

Luke, according to the records, Chapter 20.

has some water placed in chapter 20, of Luke, we read there, that the Jews, his own people, they come to Him, they will always coming to him with poses and riddles.

Trying to trip this man of God.

Now they come to him.

And they say Master, in the Hebrew language, Rabbi, respected learning learned man, priest, Bishop, whatever, Rabbi, there was a woman among us.

And that woman, according to a Jewish practice had seven husbands.

See, there was a Jewish custom that if one brother died, and he if he left New offsprings, then the second brother takes her to wife.

And when he fails and dies, the third fellow takes her to wife.

And when he fails and dies, the fourth and the fifth, and the sixth, and the seventh, seven guys had this one woman, one after another, but there was no problem because it was all one by one.

So they're asking Jesus now that the resurrection, which guy is gonna have her, because they all had her here.

So if you have her here, you will have her on the other side, this is natural.

Suppose you and your wife resurrected.

And you see on the other side means a darling Sweetheart, come, sweetie, this is this is natural.

If you recognize your wife, you know, on the other side, he says, Well, you know, the closeness that you have established on this earth for five years, 50 years you have been together as husband and wife.

Now you want to establish or continue the same relationship on the other side.

But at the resurrection, since everybody is resurrected, instantaneously, you know, simultaneously, same time, then the seven brothers waking up one time, and they see this woman, then everybody will be going after her.

You see, this is this is mine.

I had her the other guys this is mine.

I had her.

Everybody had her.

And everybody will be fighting over this one woman as wife until the war in heaven between the seven brothers if we can get away This is mine.

This is this is mine.

Now where you come from?

Because they won't remember the other guys have been here before them.

So they want to know from Jesus, which guys want to have her on the other side, because they all had her here.

In answer to that Jesus says, Is this neither shall they die any more.

Meaning that once they are resurrected, they will be immortal.

Neither shall they die any more.

They will be immortalized.

In other words, the things that kill a person, lack of food, shelter, clothing, rest, these things will not be necessary on the other side.

Once you die, you do not die a second time.

No more that immortalized.

This is a physical body.

This is God's physical needs food, shelter, clothing, sex, rest, that body, no food, no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest of the time that we know.

You have some time, other times spiritual time, but not this time.

So it says neither shall they die anymore, for they are equal and to the angels.

In other words, they will be in July.

They'll have spiritual bodies like angels, what kind of bodies they have now this for the equal and to the angels, they will be Angel Eyes, they will be spiritualized they will have spiritual bodies, they will be spirit.

For their equal unto the angels and the children of God, for such are the children of the resurrection such spirits, they will be such spirits.

Paul says spirits.

Jesus's spirits.

I wonder if there is a single person here who take exception to that he says it'll be this body.

Is there one here in the Royal Albert Hall?

In front of some 6000 people in London, I posed the question and there was not a single Muslim or Christian who could take exception to these axiomatic truths, that resurrection, in that at that time, your bodies will be spiritualized Paul says so Jesus, so I say so.

And you say so.

So he says the spirit has no flesh and bones.

In others.

I'm not what you're thinking.

You are thinking that I've come back from the dead, that is not so I'm not resurrected.

And yet the whole Christian world.

They say that he died and he was resurrected.

The man says I am not what you are thinking eating boiled fish and honeycomb.

These are the needs of this physical body.

But somehow, you see people get programmed.

I was talking about people getting brainwashed.

at the Berkeley University in 1977.

I was talking to the My American people, some teachers and students.

And I said you people are brainwashed.

So one professor stood up is I beg your pardon?

We are programmed.

I said I programmed, not brainwashed.

So we all get programmed, see from childhood, because our salvation depends on this, that we must believe that Christ died and was resurrected.

But resurrection is spiritual, spiritual.

And we find that everything about Jesus after his post crucifixion events, not once does he appear to be a spirit he's ever in hiding.

He's ever in hiding.

He never came out into the open.

He never went to the temple of Jerusalem.

He had given the Jews a sign.

He never went to fulfill that sign sign means a miracle.

To say look, you remember what I told you?

Here I am.

Do what you do your worst.

But he didn't dare do anything.

He didn't dare to go to meet these people, the Jews, his own people.

He had given them a sign.

In Matthew chapter 12, was 3839 40.

We read there, again, the same type of type of confrontation, the Jews come along and they said Master, again, in the Hebrew language rabbi, we would have a sign of V.

In other words, we want you to show us a miracle to convince as that you are above the ordinary.

You are the man we are waiting for the Messiah.

Do something like flying in a like a bird, walk on the water, give life to the dead do something man, then we know that you are above the ordinary, so that we can believe that you are our Messiah.

In response to that Jesus says to his people, he said an evil and adulterous generation secret affair a sign as a horrible nation horrible people.

You looking for miracles, tricks, tricks to convince you that I am a genuine man of God.

You want me to show you some tricks.

Magic?

is an evil and adulterous generation, secret after a sign but there shall no sign be given unto it.

No sign no miracle, except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Only one man but one.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man that is Getting to himself be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth.

This is the only sign I'm prepared to give you the only miracle I'm prepared to concede to is this.

He didn't say, you know, blind body mass, I heard him, you know, that woman with issues bleeding profusely for years, she touched me and she got healed.

You know, I brought the glasses back from the dead.

You know, that girl, she had died and I brought her back, you know, the fig tree.

I destroyed it from its very roots, you know, I killed those 2000 pigs, you know, I turn water into wine, nothing, nothing of the kind.

He never showed any of these things.

Look back, look back then what I have done so far.

The only sign I'm prepared to give you is a sign of Jonah.

What happened to Jonah is going to happen to me, his miracle is my miracle.

And I have been asking this missionaries have Christian done this hard gospel as his Bible thumpers evangelist preaches.

I said, What was that sign?

He said, The my sign is the sign of Jonah.

I said, What was that sign?

And believe me, in 40 years new Christian, was the name has ever come forward to tell me what was that sign?

I said, Did you fulfill it?

He said, Yes.

I said, What?

How speechless?

Of course, are Dr.

Robert Douglas may be better prepared, he might know all these things beforehand.

He is a missionary, you know, in the Middle East among the Muslims has been and he's somebody big in the swimmer Institute.

He might have the answer, but I will give it to me Casey face I might as well give you beforehand.

What was the sign?

I said, Look, to get the sign to know what was the sign of Jonah, you have to go to the book of Jonah in the Bible.

And that book of Jonah is one page.

This is the page for short chapters, one page.

So if you go to the book of Jonah, it won't take you two minutes.

It won't take you two minutes to read this book, this whole book.

It won't take you two minutes.

So we read there, that Jonah was sent to the ninevites.

God Almighty commands him, go to Nineveh and warn the people that they must repent in sackcloth and ashes, humble themselves before the Lord.

Otherwise, I will display the people.

Jonah, a prophet of God, but he is human.

He feels despondent.

He said this materialistic people.

They will not hack into the message.

They will make a mockery out of me as Jesus described them as wicked and adulterous generation, this wicked and adulterous generation of Jonah's time, they're going to make a mockery of him.

So he says, instead of going to Nineveh, to warn the people, he goes to Joppa and takes a boat and he's running away to Tarshish.

You don't have to remember the names.

He instead of going to one direction, he goes in the opposite direction, and he's running away.

xe there is a strong, and according to the superstitions of these people, Whosoever runs away from his masters command, deserves his duty, cause for such punishment.

So they began to question who can be responsible for this, however, because the storm is not abiding, is not subsided.

So Jonah, he realizes that he is the guilty person, because actually, he's running away from his masters, come on, God tells him to go to Nineveh, and he's going to chop up as a soldier of God, he had no right to do things presumptuously.

So he makes a manly comeback.

He said, I'm the duty man, and it is expedient that you take me and you throw me into the sea.

And God will be satisfied because actually is after my blood, not you.

And because of me, you innocent people will die is better for you, that you throw me into the sea.

One man perish, save the nation.

This is no You are such a nice man, holy man, maybe praying continuously.

He said we have a system of our own our own system to find out right from wrong.

And that system is a system what is called casting of lots, like head or tail.

We do head or tail we did is just now Halo tail.

So they had a system of casting lots like head rotate.

And according to that system of passing the time, it came to the turn of Jonah, that Jonah was the guilty man.

So they took him and they threw him overboard.

And the storm subsided.

Perhaps it was a coincidence, but the stop subside.

Now, I'm asking the question, but when they threw Jonah overboard, was it dead or was he alive?

But before you answer I don't want to get the wrong answer.

Because once you give the wrong answer, you want to stick by it.

This is human nature.

You know, once you make a wrong statement, you don't like to admit your mistake.

So I want to help you before you open your mouth.

You don't mind.

As you see Jonah had volunteered.

He had volunteered, he says threw me overboard.

And when a man oh, you know, volunteers.

You don't have to strangle him before three.

Here is what it is through me.

You don't have to kill him.

You don't have to break his arm or limb.

You don't have to spear him.

Am I right?

The man says throwing.

So when they threw him overboard was he did or was he alive?

I want to hear from you all.

And please, I want to hear that it can also be recorded on our tapes, please, once he did, or was he alive in the room overboard?

What?

You got the right answer, but you get no prize for that.

It was too simple.

As this is very simple.

The juicy, he was alive.

The Christians he was alive.

The Muslims he was alive.

New price.

The stone subsides and the fish comes and gobbles them up.

Dead or Alive.

Right.

From the fish's belly, he prays to God for health according to the book of Jonah.

I'm asking do dedmon pray that people do they pray?

No.

So so he was alive?

A little louder, pace, Li Masha.

Three, you will be given the opportunity at Question Time whoever you are, you will be given the opportunity at question time to ask questions.

Be man enough, be Christian enough to please keep your mouth shut for the moment.

Three days, three days and three nights.

The fish takes him down the ocean.

There are a lie, lie.

Don't be afraid, don't get terrified.

On the third day, the fish vomiting on the seashore.

They are alive.

Whether you are a Hindu, or a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, if you read this record and if you had sound common sense, you will say alive, alive, alive alive.

And it's a miracle.

It's a miracle of miracles.

When you throw a man into raging sea you are to die.

If he died no miracle because we expect him to die.

A fish comes and God is a man, he ought to die.

If he died, no miracle.

He didn't die some miracle sheet and suffocation in the belly of the way.

The men are to die three days and three nights you're to die if he died.

pneumococcal pneumonia is a no sign.

If he didn't die, it's a miracle.

So it's a miracle, a miracle a miracle and outstanding miracle in the Bible three times over.

It's a miracle from every point of view.

So Jesus says For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, social the son of Mandy three days and three nights in the belly of the earth, as Jonah was social the Son of man be asking how was Jonah for three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, dead or alive?

I'm asking again.

How was Jesus in the womb for three days and three nights?

There are and I beg your pardon?

According to Christian gum.

Then, as the professor asked the doctor, he said he was dead for three days and three nights.

Jonah was alive for three days and three nights Jesus was dead for three days and three nights.

Any Christian was the name will tell you that any Christian You don't have to be a DD and you don't have to be a theologian, or a preacher or an evangelist hearing voices from heaven.

You know?

Jonah is alive.

The Christian says Jesus was dead.

I'm asking in your language.

You English speaking peoples.

You Americans who speak English.

The Englishman who speaks English I speak English.

I speak English as my mother tongue.

See, this is the nearest because psychologists say that your mother tongue is the language in which you dream and the language in which you swear.

And I dream in English and I swear in English.

So from that angle, I'm also an English man.

Say I'm an English speaking person.

Though my mother tongue is Gujarati as people do.

I speak half a dozen different languages, but my mother tongue is English according to the psychologists.

So I'm asking in your language, those I'm sure all of you understand English, otherwise you won't be here.

I said the new language, you see, is this like Jonah, or unlike Jonah Jesus's For as Jonah was like Jonah, soon as Li Jesus did is that in your language like Jonah, unlike Jonah in your language.

So I'm asking now is Jesus speaking the truth?

Are you speaking the truth?

Is Jesus a liar?

Or you are a liar?

either look, you both can be right.

He said, I'll be like Jonah.

And you tell him he's not like Jonah.

So he failed, or he lied, or you are lying?

That You Are you have misunderstood the whole thing.

You read English in your language, simple, basic English, King's English of Queen's English.

This language I'm talking For as Jonah was social the Son of man be like Jonah, not unlike the very learned person.

He says, No, no, no, no, Mr.

de de.

You see, Jesus is here emphasizing the time factor.

I said there is nothing miraculous about a time factor with a man is, you know, dead.

I mean, unconscious, or going into hibernation for three minutes, three days, three hours, three years.

That is not a miracle.

The miracle is that you expect them to die and he doesn't die.

That's a miracle.

But drowning men clutching at straws.

He says no, no, no, Mr.

deedat.

You see, it is the time factor that Jesus was emphasizing Can't you see he said For as Jonah was three days and three nights social the son of Mandy three days and three nights.

He repeats over three four times.

So it's the time factor that he was emphasizing not whether dead or alive.

So I'm asking look, did he fulfill that the time factor did he fulfill that is yes.

I said if you want to make another strip just now you're gonna fall again.

You have made one for par.

You have made one mistake you are accused Jesus of lying.

He said I'll be like Jonah.

You say well, unlike Jonah, he didn't fulfill it.

And you will make a second mistake just now.

But no, no drowning man fetches at straws.

And you'll find drowning women will do the same thing.

So I said Now look, when was he crucified?

When was Jesus crucified and Christian them as a whole?

They give you the answer.

Good Friday.

Have you had a good idea?

Good Friday in your country here.

We have it in South Africa.

They call it an African school Friday.

Good Friday.

In South Africa.

We celebrate Good Friday.

Swaziland, the pseudo Zambia Zimbabwe, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, name them name them.

Every Christian nation on Earth commemorates Good Friday.

What makes Good Friday good.

This a Christ died for our sin.

Is that what makes it good?

Is it yours?

So it wasn't a good Friday?

Yes.

Okay.

When was he crucified morning or afternoon?

When?

When?

Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon, as I want it, whatever you say I accept How long was he on the cross?

Some say three hours.

Some say six hours.

I say I won't argue with you.

I won't argue you say three I accept it as a six I accept.

I said you know, the Jews were in a hurry to put him up on the cross.

That's the reading of the Scriptures.

Why we they're in a hurry.

Because they were afraid of the common people.

Jesus was a hero to the common people.

He had healed the blind the lepers had given life back to the dead.

On one occasion, he had 5000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread.

On another occasion, another 3000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread and man has such a reputation.

The people love the man.

And if his life was endangered, there might be a revolt arrived.

So quickly, quickly, quickly, apprehend the man and get rid of him.

So they grabbed him and they take him had a midnight trial with doesn't happen in jury midnight trial.

Early in the morning they can take him to pilot and as a pilot had nothing else to do.

He was waiting.

He receives them and pilot says Look, this is not my kettle of fish taking to harrowed they take him to Harold Harold had nothing to do he was also waiting nothing to do these old people nothing to do they just waiting.

There is a look.

This is thinking back to pilot the thinking back to pilot pilot is still waiting.

All these things happen at the double.

Only these things happen in films in Hollywood.

In real life.

It doesn't happen but whatever you tell me I said I accept no arguments.

So finally they get him on the cross.

We are told about three o'clock in the afternoon and he's there for about three hours according to the Christian As much as the Jews were in a hurry to put him up, queer people, they were also in a hurry to bring him down.

You know why?

They were in a hurry to put him up not in a hurry to bring him down from the cross.

You know why?

Because of the Sabbath yamasa because they were told in the book of Deuteronomy, that they must see that nobody is hanging on the tree on the Sabbath day that that land be not defiled with the Lord thy God given different inheritance.

So for that, it was a filthy, dirty, sacrilegious thing for anybody to be hanging on the cross on the Sabbath day.

And Sabbath begins at six o'clock on Friday.

According to the Muslims, the Jews, our day begins at sunset, they changes the Jews at sunset, the Muslims at sunset, we have sunset, we see the moon, we start fasting, at the end of the month, we see the moon you start fasting.

That's how the Jews count the days and the Muslims count the days.

So Sabbath starts on Friday, six o'clock.

So before that, they want to bring the body down.

So Hurry, hurry, hurry, and they managed to bring the body down without breaking the legs.

There's also a prophecy being fulfilled in that they brought him down.

And they gave him a burial wash.

Which takes about an hour hour and a half the Jewish Jewish burial bath hosel.

Then they put 100 pounds of miracles around him.

And I put shroud around him and they put him into the bunker by now is already evening.

There's no other way.

If this is what you're telling me the story is correct.

then by the time they put him into the grave and did these things is already evening, so Friday night, he's supposed to be in the gray, watch my fingers.

Friday night, he's supposed to be in the gray.

Saturday day, he's still supposed to be in the gray.

You see, I'm dividing the day into day and night.

Because Jesus did the same is that far as Jonah was three days and three nights, the day into day and night, day and night, day and night.

For us, Jonah also assists Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday morning, the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene goes to the to the that's what the Bible says.

And the tomb was empty.

As it's supposed supposed supposed You know why?

Because he could have come a Friday night.

But because the Bible doesn't say that.

I don't say that.

But he could have come on Friday night.

So I'm asking how many days and how many nights?

Can you see my fingers?

You people?

How many?

Were Three, two nights and a day, say two nights in a day?

And asking, Is it the same as what Jesus said for us?

Jonah was three days and three nights.

So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights?

I'm asking Look at this.

Is it the same?

Is it the same unless you're blind?

So he failed again.

There is no mathematician on Earth, even your Einstein.

He can help you here.

Yes, you have to follow Herbert Armstrong.

You have to listen to Herbert Armstrong.

He says how you Americans behave in a religious meeting.

I said you have to go and follow her but Armstrong is dead now.

But his hierarchy continues to climb through the the magazine the publishing 8,080,000 a month free distribution won't get it and they will tell you that Jesus Christ was not crucified on a Good Friday.

They say it was a good Wednesday.

You know that is a new trend.

And 8,000,008 Monday pushing out 8 million is gonna brainwash the whole of Christian sooner or later you'll find everybody's talking about a good Wednesday a good Wednesday, a good Wednesday, and I'm telling my people in South Africa.

If our government if they ever change Good Friday to goods, good Wednesday, we are going to protest we will march on Parliament House.

You know why?

Because Good Friday is a good day for the Muslims to you know why?

Because our people are workers in factories all over.

You are able to go to the mosque on Fridays.

gather together and we have the biggest gatherings on Good Friday in our machines.

And we have three days holiday.

Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Once is good Wednesday you have only one day holiday.

So I said we will march on the Parliament House and I said you my president says are you prepared Will You Be prepared to follow me and 100% so we will follow you march on to Parliament House will never allow good Wednesday to come about because it won't suit us.

But the Christians you are in a quandary.

The Mighty messenger of God according to you.

He fails a second time in fulfilling one prophecy.

I said, Look this man, you say he came to die for the sins of the world.

Look at it at that even for that on the verge of that Good Friday on the Thursday.

He's takes his disciples to that upper room, and they're having the supper.

And at the supper table is telling them, it says, you remember when I sent you out in your mission of preaching and healing?

I told you that you must carry nothing with you newspapers, no shoes, no stop.

No steak.

Did you like anything?

This is Movie like nothing.

This is but now I tell you, those of you who have no source must sell your garments and buy them sword swords, you know, to chop off people's heads.

So he's telling them to buy swords?

So one of them said, Master, we have two already.

So he says is enough.

Why should two swords Vina what you want to do with swords carrying apples, bananas, what do you do with thought chop off people's heads.

And he's telling you in the Gospel of St.

Luke, chapter 19, verse 27, is a for those my enemies who would not that I should reign over them, I'll become the ruler, the king says, bring them together and slay them before me with what with your fingers.

But you still don't we'll bring them here and slay them before me cut the throat.

If those of you who are not prepared to accept me as your king, bring them and kill him.

So now he's telling them arm themselves in the arm themselves to the limit.

And he takes them to the garden of gets me.

I said What for?

To play, as a company operate in that upper room khundii have gone to the temple of Jerusalem a stone's throw from where he was.

Couldn't have done that.

Why get 70 I said, Look, there is a strategy involved.

When he takes his disciples to get something in the middle of the night, not for prayer.

He puts eight men at the gate is the study here and watch with me.

And he takes with him Peter, and the two Sons of Liberty, those Fighting Irish men of the time.

Peter the rock, and the Sons of Liberty, the Sons of Thunder, this is the title given to them fighting Irishman of the time among the Jews, he takes them into further into the garden, and he makes an inner line of defense.

And it's a city here and watch with me watch what means keep God.

And he went a little further and fell on his face and pray to God said Oh, my father, if it be possible, let this capacity for me, meaning remove the difficulty from me, but not as I will.

But as thou wilt.

I want you to Oh my Lord, I want you to save me.

But in the end, I put myself at your disposal.

And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

What a choice.

God Almighty has made a choice.

There was a contract between father and son before the worlds began since the Christian.

Before the worlds began, there was a contract between father and son.

It says my son, I'll send you into the world in the year 4000, after Adam.

And I want you to die for the sins of mankind.

It looks like Jesus didn't know anything about it.

How is it behaving?

Eight at the gate?

You should follow me.

You sit here?

Is this how you prepare for suicide?

Is this how you prepare for sacrifice, a willing sacrifice?

You tell me.

If you have ever served in the army at any time I've been with the scout scouts, boys or Girl Guides, you will be able to confirm that when you do things like that you are preparing a strategy of preparation not for that but for protection and swords.

If the Jews were to come there is as I know my people, this is the spirit that the disciples were showing.

They were beating the breast in that upper room samasta we are prepared to go to prison for you master we are prepared to die for you.

Such people with sticks and stones and two swords.

They will not help increase the Jews.

But the Jews were cleverer than what he thought.

They bring Roman soldiers with them.

The situation changes against trained men what can you do?

They'll be cut to pieces here disciples.

So Jesus says, Put down your sword because he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword didn't even notice before he knew but circumstances changes and the main changes is a master studies.

But he had not come to die and he had not died as such he was neither killed nor crucified.

You see all his actions post.

crucifixion action supposed to be crucified after every action.

Every move that he makes, the way he behaves is that a man who has escaped death by the skin of his teeth, not the one who has been resurrected.

Thank you Mr.

Othman, Dida Reverend, a pastor, Robert Douglas, and you are fortunate in being able to be a part of a gathering such as this.

At the very outset, I want to make you aware that there are very few places in the world where this kind of a gathering could take place.

These sorts of discussions I'm sure take place in South Africa, I assume Mr.

Ahmed de dot does such things quite regularly there.

I know of him by reputation, and that he travels the world that he spoke in interaction of this kind in London some time back with a, an acquaintance of mine, Reverend, a nice, a nice shout out.

And of course, he's here from time to time in the United States.

May I try to impress upon all of you the uniqueness of these kinds of gatherings?

And that, in fact, they basically take place in those countries that we think of as Western countries.

I would you suggest that the next one of these ought to be in Damascus, or in Cairo, or in Baghdad or in Rabat?

But I know that that won't happen.

That won't happen precisely.

Because if not, the government's at least some of the peoples of those countries would not permit it.

So I'm I'm glad to be a part of this gathering in that we have a context of this kind in which we can come together and talk about these matters.

I was truly interested in in what Mr.

De Dodd had to say.

And I want to touch very briefly on some of the points that he raised as I go through these few minutes that are allotted to me.

But I want to start out by simply saying that he is absolutely right.

From the Christian perspective, so much centered on the crucifixion, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I would disagree with him that the only thing that Christians have to offer is salvation through the blood of Jesus, I think that's an overstatement for your benefit.

He knows better than that.

Christians have many more things to offer than that, that are tremendously unique.

But nevertheless, at the very center of what Christianity purports to be, is the concept of the reality of the death, the crucifixion, and death, and burial and physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

The gospels set this forth, as a statement.

For example, in Matthew 27, verse 50, it simply says, that having been on the cross for a while, let me back up a few verses earlier, it says they crucified Him.

It then describes a series of events upon the cross and in verse 50, concludes that he gave up his spirit, whatever that means.

In Mark chapter 15.

Again, it states that they crucified Jesus.

And in verse 37, it says he breathed his last.

There's no question about what the Christian gospels are setting forth, namely, that Jesus was crucified, and that he in fact, did die on the cross.

Now really, the issue that we're dealing with here is a deeper one.

I'll touch on the text or two that Mr.

De dot shared with you just briefly.

But ultimately, what we're talking about, though, we're not talking about directly, is the whole question of the reliability of the Bible.

Mr.

D, that is affirming tonight in his own indirect sort of way, that the Gospel of Matthew the Gospel of Mark the Gospel of Luke, the gospel of john and the writings of Peter, and Paul, and James, and the others who contributed material to make up the New Testament simply are unreliable, that they are faults, faults, at least to the extent that they affirm that Jesus died and arose from the dead.

I find that an interesting kind of assumption that is behind all of this discussion.

You see, we can talk about the crucifixion and then we can talk about a spirit, spiritual body or a spiritualize body and, and three days and all of those things and dead or alive In the belly of the fish, but that's really somehow diverting our attention from what sits at the very center and core of all of this is can you trust God?

That's the issue.

And what kind of a god do you believe in?

Now, the Holy Book says, My covenant Will I not break, nor alter the things that have gone out of my lips.

Jesus said, heaven and earth shall not pass away, or heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away.

And the Quran on several occasions affirms that none can change the words of God.

I would raise the question tonight.

At the very outset, it seems unrelated but to me, it's centrally related.

Would any of you Muslims here tonight, dare to entertain the idea of changing the Quran?

No, say it louder.

You're absolutely right, the thought would not enter your mind.

Why?

Because you believe that the word of God and you would they're not tamper with it.

And even if you decided to perish that thought, you certainly would not be successful because Korans today are found from Fiji to Malaysia, to Indonesia, to Bangladesh, and India and Pakistan and Iraq and Syria.

And do I need to continue to name the places Kansas City and Lawrence and Chicago, in New York City in Los Angeles, and boy in US attics, and Caracas, and on and on and on.

So imagine the two of you, or 10 of you, or 100 of you, decided to get together and alter what the Quran says.

You would be discovered very, very quickly.

Because there is no way that you somehow could gather up all of the Korans in the world, if you did people would say, what are those people in Lawrence doing with all of the neurons in the world?

That you see, in effect, what you are having to say is that what you would not entertain the thought of doing.

Christians did, too, a book that they love as much as you love the Quran.

And that what you could not do because of the impossibility of it.

Somehow they did.

For very early.

The Christian message in written form was scattered among multitudes of peoples and languages, and countries, many of whom did not like each other, and did not trust each other, many of whom had different theological perspectives.

And you know what a problem that is.

You know, what happens in a religion class at Kansas University, if they offer such here in Islam?

When you have Shiite students and Sunni students, I know what happens, you know what happens?

They're constantly watching each other in terms of how they might relate to whatever the professor says, because they disagree about certain things.

You may say, Well, they all agree about the Quran, and the five pillars that's beside the point.

The point is, there is a degree at some level of suspicion and distrust.

And so there was among those early Christian groups, I am ashamed to say.

And so there still is today among Christian groups, I would be a fool not to admit that.

But the point is given that kind of a context, given the fact that all Christians who truly knows something of God, love God's word, the holy book, the Bible, who would never change it, who would think to change it, and how would they bring it to pass?

And so you see, given the fact that the New Testament affirms the crucifixion and the death and the resurrection of Jesus, Mr.

De Dodd is forced sin To deal with a variety of things that and he could extend his list on out he has many more arguments than these that he could offer.

But he's forced to deal with a variety of things that are not that weighty.

For example, He wants to talk about a spiritualized body and says, Who said so, Paul?

Poor EXA?

Jesus, Mr.

dedup?

Can we equate spiritual with spirit or spiritualized is not to respect the context of the New Testament, and the possibility of a variety of meanings for the word for example, in Galatians, six and one, the apostle Paul says, and let those of you who are spiritual restore such a one is he saying, Let those of you who have spiritualized bodies know that Mr.

De dot would have you understand that the word spiritual in First Corinthians 15, always must mean one in the same thing, namely, spirit or spirit ized.

That's just bad, Jesus.

That's not respecting the context of the New Testament and the variation in the possibility of the uses of words.

He tells us, for example, that when Jesus was betrayed, everyone fled.

And so we have no eyewitnesses to his crucifixion, how do you know that?

That is an assumption.

The New Testament does not say having fled, they stayed away, you have to assume that and that is an assumption you make?

Because it is one that somehow supports the position that you want to take.

He wants to say about Jesus and Jonah.

Was Jonah alive in the belly of the whale?

Yes.

And so is Jesus alive?

He wants to talk about threes and so on.

I'll tell you the answer to the sign Mr.

d.it, is that Jonah was in tune.

It happened to be in a fish.

And Jesus was in tune that happened to be in the earth, the issue is not three.

The issue is not dead or alive.

The issue is in two minutes.

I'm surprised to hear you admit, I think you admitted that Jesus was in the tomb alive for three days.

That's not standard Muslim doctrine.

Standard Muslim doctrine is that Jesus similitude or image somehow was imparted to someone standing nearby.

And Jesus got away scot free and someone else was on the cross.

Well, that is a Muslim interpretation, is it not my friend?

If you would look among your scholars, if you would look at the range of opinions and interpretations, in Islamic theology, this is at least one perspective.

Now, what's not being said to many of you people tonight, you Americans is this, that Islam has a great divergence of perspectives on a variety of issues.

But you're not going to hear that tonight.

You're not going to learn that.

What is said to you tonight by one man is in effect reported as that which all Muslims believe about a certain thing.

And we could pick 100 subjects tonight and discover considerable diversity.

Jesus was in the tomb three days alive.

I'm astonished.

What does three days equal?

He asks?

Well, I would suggest to you what is five minutes equal?

in Beirut, you'd better not take five minutes to mean five minutes on the clock.

60 seconds.

Because it does.

Can you repair my shoes?

Yes.

When they will.

When will they be ready?

Five minutes.

It means a little while.

It's very imprecise.

You want to ask me, Dr.

Douglas.

How much time did you spend in Lawrence, Kansas two days?

When did you arrive?

Two o'clock Thursday.

When did you leave?

Nine o'clock Friday.

That hardly sounds like 48 hours.

But it is two days.

For that is the way we use land.

wigeon that is the way the writers of the New Testament use language.

And so you see, it's to trivialize the thing to come along.

And in effect, begin to click down days and ask what's really going on here.

You have to respect the context, the the setting the way people in their own cultures deal with issues and subjects and so on and so forth.

All right.

Having said all of that, let me go on to say what I want to say.

Namely, that the holy book, points, almost from its beginning, to the crucifixion, to the death and to the resurrection of Jesus.

I cannot develop these in detail for you.

And so I run the risk of appearing foolish in the process.

But I invite you to look at them nonetheless.

In the holy book, Genesis 22, we are told of Abraham, offering his son, Muslims believe it was Ishmael.

The Book of Genesis says it was Isaac, that's another question altogether.

But in the course of this, Isaac the son is this text says ask Where is the lamb for the bird offering?

Abraham says, God will provide the lamb my son, Abraham ties his son and prepares to slit his throat.

And the Lord intervenes and points him to a ram to an animal.

And the Lord said, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will bless you.

This is an allegory, a type and analogy, a true historical event also pointing to the nature of God as a God willing, as it were to provide the lamb of sacrifice, which Jesus is identified as being Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, says john the baptist when he first encounters Jesus.

Similar things turn up at the Passover in the book of Exodus, in the 12th chapter.

There the people are called upon to take a lamb for the family.

This Lamb has to be without defect, it must be slaughtered.

And God says, On that night, I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn, both men and animal, and I will bring judgment on all the Gods of Egypt, I am the Lord.

The blood will be for you a sign on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you.

Again, recall that the affirmation of the New Testament is that Jesus is the Lamb of God.

And the writing of the Apostle Paul which says Christ, our pascall or Passover lamb is offered.

Now either Jesus is the Lamb of God, either Jesus is the Passover lamb.

On the type of the lamb offered in Egypt that prevented the death angel from slaying are the scriptures that the Christians and the Jews have are unreliable.

And if they are unreliable, I submit to you tonight that God has failed.

Because God said his word would not pass away.

God said he would preserve his word God said, no one can change his word.

In the Day of Atonement, as described in Leviticus 16.

Again, an analogy drawn out of the history of the Jews, on that particular day an animal.

In fact, two elements play different roles, one becomes, in effect, the sacrifice for the sins of the people.

The other while living comes to carry all of the sins of the people far away into a lonely place where that scene no longer is present, to for them to have to confront moment by moment and day by day.

The New Testament in the book of Hebrews chapters nine and 10, in a very extensive sort of way, the idea is developed that Jesus is both the priest and the sacrifice, the one who cancels and removes sin.

The Prophet spoke as well.

One quick example from the book of Isaiah.

Now I understand that Mr.

De dot will be tempted to say, that's an interesting prophecy.

But where does it say that it has anything to do with Jesus?

Well, it doesn't, in the book of Isaiah.

I mean, after, after all, Isaiah live 700 years before Jesus came along.

But as you come to the writings of the New Testament, as people saw more fully the purposes of God unfolding, they saw its meaning and made application.

Now they were either wrong or they're right.

And if they're wrong, God failed.

Because God said he would preserve his word and protect his word.

In 53, of Isaiah, we read, he was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth, he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before he shares his silence, so he did not open his mouth, by oppression and judgment.

By oppression and judgment, he was taken away, and who can speak of his descendants for he was cut off from the land of the living.

For the transgression of my people, he was stricken, he was assigned a grave with the wicked.

And with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

A little later, in the same portion we read, therefore, I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong because he poured out his life and to death, and was numbered with the transgressors.

For He bore the sin of the many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Well, if you think about that, and read that carefully, you can see the connection between those statements, and what Abraham was doing earlier, and what took place at the Passover, and what happened in the Day of Atonement.

And when you come to the New Testament, the same train of thought continues on Jesus day death was foreshadowed and foretold.

Jesus during his life, spoke about his death.

He did so indirectly.

And of course, I know we can argue over what these verses mean.

But for example, in john 219, he said, destroy this temple.

And in three days, I will raise it again.

JOHN Ed's.

And he said this speaking of his body, three times in the Gospel of john, Jesus speaks of being lifted up.

Now, in John's thinking, the idea of being lifted up is not only the idea of being lifted up on the cross, but also then being lifted up into heaven and exalted as Lord.

And in one of the passages that speaks of Jesus being lifted up, there is added to the comment.

And by these words, he showed the manner of his death.

It had to do with his death.

In john the 10th Chapter, Jesus makes this amazing kind of statement.

And remember again, Does God protect his word?

Can people change the Word of God will.

Jesus said, I am the good shepherd.

The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.

He didn't say the Good Shepherd acts like he lays down his life for his sheep.

The Good Shepherd goes through the motions, but doesn't really do it.

The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep and I am the good shepherd.

Three times in about 10 verses, he says, I lay down my life.

And he adds, the reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life, so that I may take it up again.

You see, he does not lay his life now merely to lay it down.

He does not die.

Me To die, he dies in order to be resurrected, bodily.

Jesus toxin, john 12 of the seed falling into the ground.

And as it falls into the ground and dies, it brings forth much fruit.

If you put that in its context, again, he is talking about being lifted out.

And if we have difficulty with all of these rather ambiguous kinds of figurative statements, then we have a great abundance of other statements like and he Jesus then began to teach them, the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and teachers of the law and that he must be killed.

And after three days rise again, he spoke plainly about this.

And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

Now, this may well be why they were terrified and thought they saw a spirit, they had no anticipation that Jesus would rise from the dead.

They could not entertain the idea.

And yet Jesus spoke to them very plainly and clearly about it on a number of occasions.

In the next chapter of Mark, Jesus said to them, the Son of Man is going to be betrayed in the hands of men, they will kill him.

After three days, he will rise, but they did not understand what he meant, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

That's Mark nine, Mark 10.

Again, Jesus is with his disciples.

And he says, The Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law, they will condemn him to death, and will hand him over to the Gentiles who will mock him, spit upon him, flog him and kill him three days later, he will rise.

Now in case people want to quibble and say, Well, Jesus speaks in these verses about the Son of Man.

And in case someone of you wants to say, Well, now the expression Son of Man merely means a human being, as in the book of Ezekiel.

Let me assure you that the expression Son of Man, like spiritual, has a variety of meanings, not just one, or even two, and fairness says that one, understand and grapple with the full range of variety of meanings.

On one occasion, Jesus says, No one ascends into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, even the Son of Man, the Son of Man, whoever he is, is not just a human being, the Son of Man is someone who descended from heaven.

That's hardly a man having sex with a woman.

And she conceives that a child is born.

There's something divine going on there.

And in john chapter nine, beginning in verse 35, to make it very plain.

Jesus speaks to a man who was blind who to whom he had given sight again.

And he said, Do you believe in the Son of Man and the man said to